Posts by Big Dog

81

My conclusion on the matter

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

after being brought up a jw, going to mts, bethel, pioneer school multiple times, serving in foreign assignments and having been an elder for decades my conclusion is that i am now pima, physically in mentally agnostic.. agnostic means you think it can’t be proven either way creation or evolution.

i do tend to lean towards evolution but creation at the very start because you can’t get life from dead matter.

but i’m open to the possibility of chance theory at the origin of it all.

Big Dog

"It is a moral fact that doing gratuitous injury to others is always 'bad'."

Ok, that's what I thought you meant. A moral fact is another way of saying based on my opinion, belief, view of the universe, desired outcome etc etc doing gratuitous injury is always bad. Incidentally, my moral compass would agree with that statement.

The way you originally stated it seemed as if you were of the school of thought that there were certain moral absolutes which I don't believe there are. All morality from wherever it springs is a human and social construct and not scientifically verifiable. Physicist Sean Carroll argues that morality cannot be a part of science...and that the scientific method cannot answer moral questions. We don't have a periodic table of virtues and it is evident by the vastly different views of morality held by different cultures that it is a moral fact because we make it so.

I can understand when people echo Dostoyevsky's "If God does not exist, then everything is permitted, " the affirmation made by the character Ivan Karamazov in the The Brothers Karamazov. If one can escape from the law men and know they will never be judged, will they still behave morally? The lawlessness that often accompanies a breakdown in social order can certainly make one wonder if humans are truly moral creatures. The old saying is that civilization is three meals away from anarchy. I have seen the truth of that up close and personally.

The counter argument being that the fact that we have the capacity to create norms and law gives us proof of a moral consciousness independent from any supernatural source. Or is that simply each person's desire to be secure in their persons that they agree together that anything that someone else does that injures me is therefore wrong?

I'm splitting hairs here as an intellectual exercise, as I mentioned above my moral compass is pretty traditional by current American standards. We holding these truths to self-evident and so forth, but if there is no supreme being handing out moral absolutes then I can understand where people might feel that in the absence of said supreme being and fear of human punishment that morality might be pretty flexible and why shouldn't I do whatever the heck I want.

81

My conclusion on the matter

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

after being brought up a jw, going to mts, bethel, pioneer school multiple times, serving in foreign assignments and having been an elder for decades my conclusion is that i am now pima, physically in mentally agnostic.. agnostic means you think it can’t be proven either way creation or evolution.

i do tend to lean towards evolution but creation at the very start because you can’t get life from dead matter.

but i’m open to the possibility of chance theory at the origin of it all.

Big Dog

What is a "moral fact"? I'm curious.

81

My conclusion on the matter

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

after being brought up a jw, going to mts, bethel, pioneer school multiple times, serving in foreign assignments and having been an elder for decades my conclusion is that i am now pima, physically in mentally agnostic.. agnostic means you think it can’t be proven either way creation or evolution.

i do tend to lean towards evolution but creation at the very start because you can’t get life from dead matter.

but i’m open to the possibility of chance theory at the origin of it all.

Big Dog

Interesting, and how are those moral absolutes identified?

I think it came from an article on philosophy, it's something I saw and saved.

81

My conclusion on the matter

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

after being brought up a jw, going to mts, bethel, pioneer school multiple times, serving in foreign assignments and having been an elder for decades my conclusion is that i am now pima, physically in mentally agnostic.. agnostic means you think it can’t be proven either way creation or evolution.

i do tend to lean towards evolution but creation at the very start because you can’t get life from dead matter.

but i’m open to the possibility of chance theory at the origin of it all.

Big Dog

The question of who decides what is morally right or wrong is a philosophical one. According to Immanuel Kant, ethical decision making is up to us and our ability to reason and is done through the categorical imperative. Moral codes are specific to the upbringing of the person and the society he or she belongs to, so it differs from individual to individual. Some believe that Jesus Christ is the only one who can decide what is right and wrong, while others believe that it is either God or men who make the rules.

26

How frequent is this among Jehovah's Witnesses

by vienne in

my grandmother, an immigrant from austria, was.

two of my aunts, their husbands, both elders, various cousins and two of my sisters are witnesses.

so is my grand uncle.

Big Dog

Absolutely, the WTBS is the most uncharitable institution and certainly religion I have ever seen. Think about it, there are absolutely no support networks of any kind for anything. No soup kitchens, no canned food drives, no meals on wheels, no pensions for the Bethel crowd that I'm aware of, etc. It is without a doubt the coldest religion I have ever seen. Works of charity are not a part of the culture. My kids had to do community service hours to graduate from high school for goodness sake. They pay lip service to it occasionally, but the fact of the matter is that it is not and never was in any way a priority. Hammer doors and place magazines, which was the be all and end all. I remember saying to my parents, if a guy is laying in the street and hasn't eaten in 3 days, don't you think he might benefit more from a sandwich than a magazine at that point? Nope, spiritual food I was told would do him more good. My parents were actually decent people but that's what they were told from the platform.

It's no shock then that the adherents of the faith reflect that. Attitude reflects leadership. Most of my family is still in the Borg and I personally know of more than a few parents rotting away in facilities because to take care of them at home would cut into the preaching work.

6

Is there a 'dark mode' available for this site?

by ProdigalApostate in

i view this site on my mobile browser and would prefer to use it in dark mode (white text on black background).

dark mode helps conserve battery on an oled display used on most phones.

how do i enable it for this site?

Big Dog

I have gone dark mode on everything that has it. I have found it to be much easier on the eyes than all that acreage of white background frying my retinas, especially in the evening.

124

JWLITE

by Teddnzo in

jw
friends

even elders can be part of the new jw lite brigade these days.

they don’t need to go on door to door anymore and there is no requirement for anything really.. taking meeting parts is all dead easy you could turn up on the day with zero preparation because it’s all in the meeting workbook.. quarterly elders meetings are just old men having a good old natter just like old men do down the pub.. congregations could be likened to pubs or bars these days just without the drinks, those come at other times.. no need for territory maps, these almost went away with covid letter writing now they are extremely slow getting finished as those who still go door to door only do ten mins.. you could even voice your questions these days about things the gb say and then just say “we can’t be dogmatic we just don’t know”.

i predict they will say this about 1914 soon..

Big Dog

No matter how much they dilute it, unless they go all the way I would question what would be the attraction? Why would you want to join? Why not be Catholic, Orthodox or mainline Protestant and get your holidays and birthdays and so forth?

The big draw and I say that with dripping sarcasm was based in being different and elect with an early expiration date. If you are going to move in from the fringe towards more mainstream faiths, I fail to see the much to recommend JW-Lite.

33

THIS is how Jehovah operates? Examining GB Jefffrey Winder's words

by Terry in

governing body member jeffrey winder on jw dot org:“we are not embarrassed about ‘adjustments’ that are made; nor is an apology needed for not getting it ‘exactly right’ previously.

we understand: this is how jehovah operates.”

1952 no wt 6/1/52 p.338 1965 maybe they will be resurrected .

Big Dog

Like I said in my last post, this is how they all operate. Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, and the fringe lunatics like the WTBS. From the very beginning there have been arguments, schisms, inconsistencies, retractions, and on and on and on.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, you either believe in the magic or you don't. The rest is window dressing, interesting conversation over coffee and reliant on faith and not verifiable to any significant extent.

All of the apologists and the tortured logic applied to scripture and prophecy, if anything in my opinion, make people less likely to believe than to do so.

33

THIS is how Jehovah operates? Examining GB Jefffrey Winder's words

by Terry in

governing body member jeffrey winder on jw dot org:“we are not embarrassed about ‘adjustments’ that are made; nor is an apology needed for not getting it ‘exactly right’ previously.

we understand: this is how jehovah operates.”

1952 no wt 6/1/52 p.338 1965 maybe they will be resurrected .

Big Dog

No, this is how people operate and they've been doing since 33AD. There were all sorts of different schools of thought after Jesus' death. Different interpretations and conclusions reached. Jesus was God, no Jesus wasn't God, actual blood and body in the bread and wine, and on and on and on. As time went on various councils "settled" things, until they weren't. The JW's don't have a lock on this one that's for sure.

15

J.W org and Noah's Flood

by Phizzy in

i remember when i was "in" the org.

had a ridiculous public talk outline defending the genesis flood myth.. do they have a current one doing that ?.

Big Dog

@ PetrW

Yes, the flood account was just one of many issues that I had over the years while growing up in the Borg. As I got older the theological issues multiplied until I had quite a bill of particulars. The issues with the WTBS were in my mind separate and distinct from the theological issues and those got to the point to where by the time I was 15 I had decided that the WTBS was a complete sham.

The theology can make for interesting discussions and ponderings but in the end, I subscribe to the very simple mantra of, you either believe it or you don't for whatever reasons make sense to that individual. Trying to "proof" it like an equation is a waste of time, it's a mystery is as good an explanation as there is for most of it.

Science has its own problems, mainly that it's wielded by humans and its "truth" is often subservient to politics, greed, economics, academic infighting, crackpots and so on. One only needs to revisit the recent pandemic to see that in action. Anyone that holds up science as the ultimate authority on everything and proclaims with absolute certainty this or that needs to check themselves as well. Science has the potential to answer far more than theology, but we aren't quite there yet either.